Episode 49 - Dead Straight Line with Malcolm Duffy

Join us as we talk with author Malcolm Duffy about his YA book Dead Straight Line. This is his fifth book and is inspired by a teenage game of traveling in a straight line through, over or under obstacles. Rory pressures Yell into the game, with life changing consequences. The book explores risk taking, blame, guilt and shame as well as empathy and forgiveness. Written in a sparse and pacey style, it is an accessible read and will have wide appeal, including for Y8 and up boys that everyone struggles to find recommendations for.  

As well as discussing the book, we talk about Malcolm's path to becoming a writer, how he researches the issues he portrays and what he is working on now.

More information about Malcolm and also school visit information can be found on his website here.

Malcolm's books can be found here:

Dead Straight Line

Seven Million Sunflowers

Read Between the Lines

Sofa Surfer

Me Mam. Me Dad. Me.

Ali also recommended The Boy I Hardly Know by Lisa Heathfield.

Transcript

Katy 0:11

Hi, I'm Katy.

Ali 0:12

Hi, I'm Ali,

Katy 0:13

and welcome to Mostly Book Talk. We're really pleased to have with us today YA author Malcolm Duffy, and he's going to talk to us about his new book, Dead Straight Line.

Ali 0:27

We are delighted today to talk to Malcolm Duffy, who for listeners haven't come across your work before you this is your fifth novel.

Malcolm 0:35

That's right. Yeah.

Ali 0:36

We just want to hear a bit about the book and how it came into being. So um should we start with how you got to become a novelist? Because you might have had a slightly circuitous route.

Malcolm 0:48

I have had an unusual route for this position as an author. I guess turning the clock back to when I was a young lad. Obviously, this was a time pre-internet, pre-mobile phones. I was living up in Newcastle with my mum and dad. And I was one of these kids, I love going out on my bike, I like playing football, all the usual things. But if it was a wet day and there was nothing on TV, which normally there wasn't, I'd get a pen and paper out and just start writing. And I'd write little stories. And I've no idea really where this came from. And it's something that amused me, and I had no idea that I was ever going to get anything published. But in the same way that I guess some people like doing puzzles or whatever, I really enjoyed writing, and I've still got some of these little stories stashed away in a box somewhere. And writing's always been part of my DNA. I'm just fascinated by the blank page and trying to create something where nothing existed. I guess it's the same with people who like painting or people creating music where there was nothing. You create something and I got a real buzz out of it. So moving on a bit, I had a usual sort of school life and did okay at school. And I ended up going to university where I studied law, which seems like a slightly odd path to take. And to this day, I'm not quite sure why I studied law, but I did, and I quite enjoyed it. But it wasn't really scratching that creative itch, really. It wasn't really getting my creative juices flowing. So about halfway through my uh law degree, I thought I need to try and find something else. And I bumped into this girl once and she said, I'm doing a copywriting course. And I said, Copyright, has that something to do with copyright law? And she said, Oh no, copywriters, people who write ads. And I had this sort of eureka moment where I thought, that's me. I see these ads on Italian posters and all, I can't believe you can actually make a living doing that. So basically, that's what I've been doing most of my professional career is coming up with ads for all sorts of products, you name it, I've worked on. And and I've absolutely loved it. If I'm somebody who likes coming up with ideas, it's it's brilliant that I actually get paid for coming up with mad stuff that comes on the TV and what have you.

Katy 2:38

Is that quite a discipline? Because you because you're basically writing, presumably continually to a deadline and to a spec and just come up with another idea.

Malcolm 2:46

Oh, yes, yeah. I mean, the briefs sometimes are very tight. There isn't that freedom that some people might think that you don't just go away and come up with a mad idea because a lot of clients have their style books, they have their rule books as to what you can and can't do. So if you have to write a 30-second radio commercial, it can't be 31 seconds, it's got to be 30 seconds. And the brief might include the product details and lots of, dare I say, boring stuff that you somehow try and weave in there, but with a bit of a creative twist in it. So I think it is a challenge, and it's one which I loved. But I think in a funny sort of way, advertising has really helped me become an author because quite often what you get as a copywriter, you get given a brief for something that's really boring. It might be a tin of baked beans or a Calux cornflakes, and you've got to write a 30-second TV commercial. And you think I've somehow got to make this as exciting and engaging as possible and stand out from all the other ads. And I guess the same is true when I write a book. I think sometimes the writing about subjects from a theme, some people might go, Oh, I'm not sure about that. And it's my job as an author to use every trick in the book to make that as an engaging and memorable and as much of a page turner as I can. So I think advertising has sort of helped me over the years to, I guess, become a better writer. And then I had a good career in advertising, worked with big agencies, had my own agency for 10 years. But I think there came a point where I thought, I really want to write my own thing, to put something down on paper that's much more me. Because as you mentioned, you're quite often working within quite strict briefs. And much as you can put some of your own creativity in there, it's still a client sort of calling the shots and telling you what you can and can't do. And I thought, going back to me as a little boy, I thought, I want that blank page again. I want to write what I want to write. I was actually working at Comic Relief. I was creative director there for three years, which was a really interesting job. And it was there that I had my idea for my first book, which was Me Mammy Dad, Me. And I was looking for an idea for a long time. And being a Comic Relief, who got to work with lots of charities and see where the money was spent. I remember we were down in Bath one day looking at a charity that dealt with the domestic abuse and looking at the women and the children who were being supported. And it was there I had this light bulb moment because I thought it would be interesting to write a book about domestic abuse, but the viewpoint of not the woman, but a boy in the family who's seeing what's going on but doesn't quite understand it. And he goes in search of the dad to try and sort the situation out. I had the title, I had the idea, me, mommy, dad, me. And I spent a year or two writing it and finally came out in 2018 to critical acclaim. And it was one of Waterstone's books of the air. And I guess it was off and running, really. And I guess what I hadn't imagined when I wrote that book that I'd suddenly become an issue writer that all my books I've just wrote a book, really, and not really thought much beyond that.

Katy 5:26

Well, we're gonna ask partly why write for children and also why have you gone for really difficult issues? Because all of your books have tackled quite difficult issues. Why focus on difficult issues?

Malcolm 5:37

Yeah, well, funny enough, I didn't even realise I'd written a YA book until I sent a documentation. And she said, I just wrote a book. And it was obviously written from the first person viewpoint of a 14-year-old lad in Newcastle. And she said, Oh, this is perfect YA. And I said, Really? And said, Yeah, yeah, this is. So I'd written a YA book, unbeknownst to me. I just thought I'd written a story. And on it went. So I ended up with Zephyr, which looked after children and YA books. But the issue side of it really fascinates me because sometimes people say, Oh, would you like to write a fantasy book or some dystopian novel or whatever? And I guess I could, but I really liked the challenge of trying to take like a tough issue, be it domestic abuse or the Ukraine war or whatever, and try and make that palatable and readable and entertaining and all of those things. I suppose it goes back to me being an advertising copywriter to take something that's a bit tricky, if you like, and turn it into something that is, dare I say, enjoyable to an audience that might not at first value think it is enjoyable. Not to say I'd never write a fantasy book or dystopian in any of the categories, but I really quite like looking at things that are real and I like the research side of it, and I like finding out about subjects that are happening in the world, like the Ukraine war or dyslexia or whatever that may be. I really enjoy that side of it. I do a lot of research to make sure that my books are true. And I'd also feel a sense of responsibility to the people who are writing about when I'm writing about the Ukraine war, I'm writing about refugees and real Ukrainians who are some of whom are going to read the book. So I need to reflect that in a way that's true. And I'd hate people to go, oh, that's just made up or that would never happen. Or do you know what I mean? So I'm very cognizant of that when I'm writing my stories, that anyone reading this will know that I've done my homework and that the story rings true and it isn't just made up, so to speak.

Ali 7:19

Yeah. And it's interesting with this book, this theme, how did this one come about?

Malcolm 7:24

Yeah, dead straight line. Because I'm up to book five. Luckily, there's still a lot of issues out there. And a lot of people have asked me, How do you write a book? People say, Where do you start? And it's only recently that I've actually given an answer to that. And I guess I've got two things that I'd say was one is find a theme that you're fascinated by that you really, really want to write about, whatever that is. And I think the reason that is you're going to spend a long time, six months to a year or maybe longer, writing about it. So it better be something that that grips you. And number two is to find a problem. Because all books, all films are problem-based, everything is. But make it an interesting problem, not just like with this case of my mammy, dad, me, not just a case of a boy trying to deal with his mom's domestic abuse, which is clearly is a problem. But he's got to find his dad, and no one will tell him where his dad is. He doesn't even know who he is. Now that makes the problem more interesting because it gives the story a bit of a twist. And I try to do that with all of my books, make that problem as interesting as I can. So with this book, Dead Straight Line, I was thinking, what subjects appeal to me? What am I fascinated by? And I started thinking about risk and the risks that people take. Then it's been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that men are far bigger risk takers than women on just about every parameter you can think of, be that driving or sex or drink or drugs, or they've even done things crossing the road. They've actually filmed people crossing the road, and men take more risks when a car's coming than women do. And there's something about the way that the male brain is hardwired to, I don't know, not necessarily get a buzz out of risk, but maybe there's a sense of infallibility or what have you. But I was fascinated by this, why some people take risks and some people don't. And I started again thinking about my own life and the risks that I took. And sometimes when I've given talks in my places, there was one incident, particularly up in Newcastle when I was a young guy and should have known better. And I took three risks on the same day. One, I drank too much, was in Newcastle at the time, was about half the course. Number two, I got into a car with my friend and he'd been drinking, stupid thing. And number three, I didn't wear my seatbelt. And he crashed into a parked car going down a steep hill in Newcastle, and I went through the car windscreen. Luckily, I wasn't blinded. I could have been, but my head's still numb to this day. I was off work for five months. So it was a very risky, stupid thing to do. But funny enough, I didn't want to write about car crashes. Unfortunately, they're in the news a lot, and it's nearly always quite often young men showing off or whatever. I wanted to find something a bit more unusual. And again, I talk back to my actually my teenage years when I remember was with a friend of mine, Andrew, and we were in town once. And he said, Oh, well, we're going to head back to my house. And I said, Oh, that's good. And he said, Yeah, but we're not going to use the pavements and we're not going to use the roads. We're going to go in a dead straight line. I said, You're kidding. He said, No, that's what we're going to do. We're going to go through people's front and back gardens and whatever's in the way. So we did this very stupid game, and it was very scary and exhilarating. And we got shouted at a few times and a few minor cuts and bruises. And I thought that's is what's going to be at the center of the story. Because it's believable. It's the sort of thing young guys would do. But it's got that element of risk that things can go horribly wrong, which is what happens in this particular story with Rory, where he comes up with this game to amuse himself and his friends, but for one of his friends, it goes drastically wrong. And that's what the story's about, not just the risk, but the consequences of that risk and how one mistake can lead to a huge ripple effect and have a huge impact, not just on yourself, but your family, your friends, and all those around you. And it's something that as soon as I thought about it, I thought that's got to be the good basis of a book. And off I went.

Katy 10:57

I'm really intrigued that the game comes from a real experience. It does feel like something only a teenage boy could think up. I have to do that. Well, exactly.

Malcolm 11:06

Yeah. Or someone who'd either been taking too much drink or drugs or whatever. It's one of those stupid things that I guess people do to amuse themselves. That I used to do when I was a young guy. And funny enough, not just a teenager, but into my early 20s as well. But I should have known better. It's funny how it is a particularly male thing to do this sort of thing. I can't imagine too many young women doing that. I'm sure there are some who would, but it's definitely a male thing, which again I find quite fascinating.

Katy 11:30

And it's all born out of the nothing else to do, isn't it? That hanging around and that sense of we need to find something to entertain ourselves and what are we going to do today?

Ali 11:42

It's also that moment, isn't it? I think I don't know whether there's research about this, whether women do take a beat, maybe.

Malcolm 11:49

I think so. They take a pause for breath. And I don't know whether there's that peer pressure thing that isn't so prevalent among women that the guys maybe at a macho thing or whatever, that somehow they have to step into the plate and not seen to be a chicken or to hold back. Whereas, as you say, a young woman, a woman might say, But do you know what that's crazy or I'm gonna take a breath here? That's a stupid thing to do. Whereas I think guys sometimes can feel that peer pressure to I've got to step up, I've got to man up and do whatever that crazy thing is.

Katy 12:16

Um it's a great idea because it's simple in its understanding, and it's a really straightforward idea of a game to understand.

Malcolm 12:27

Yes.

Ali 12:27

But there's just so many variations of what could go wrong in terms of how it works out.

Malcolm 12:33

Exactly, yeah. And well, funny enough, in an original earlier draft, I thought should someone die, they could easily die. Someone could fall through a greenhouse, they could sever an artery. There's lots of ways you could actually die taking a shortcut. But actually, my agent dissuaded me from that. She said, No, it's far better if something happens and that person is still alive. And actually it was totally the right call because once someone's dead, unfortunately they're dead. And not to say there won't be huge ramifications of that, but that's the end of that person's story. And I think it was the right decision to make that it wasn't something that was going to be as sudden and final as a death, but something that was going to be an injury that was going to live on.

Katy 13:09

Yeah. So I think it probably helps to just explain a bit about what happens because it happens quite early on in the book. We worried about the spoiler, but there is a sort of key event that happens quite early on in the book where Rory has dared really his girlfriend's younger brother, who he's supposed to be sort of taken care of, hanging out with his mates, and he pressures him into playing this game. And the worst thing happened that could happen does happen, and he goes over too high a fence and lands badly and ends up being seriously injured and paralyzed, and it's the ramifications of that, isn't it? Yeah, and it's really complicated because it's all part of quite a complicated set of relationships that you've set up there. And Rory isn't necessarily that likable, is he? Was that deliberate?

Malcolm 14:02

Yeah, I wanted to create a sort of anti-hero in a funny sort of way. You've got this guy who's quite full of himself, he's a bit of a jack the lad, he's sort of leader of this particular gang. He is just a bit full of himself, and he obviously disobeys his parents in the same way that I'm sure some young men do. But I didn't want to make him out to be a total villain or somebody that was so self-centered that they didn't feel about other people. What I really wanted more than anything was to have an absolute shock to this guy who, from where everything had gone right, and I'm sure that happens to a lot of people that they'll get away with something so long and suddenly something goes horribly wrong. And basically the whole world turns on him because he's paralyzed, his sister's brother, and he's going to spend his rest of his life in a wheelchair. And the whole ramification of that, that he's brought this not just upon himself but upon his family. And what will his family and friends think about that? His relatives, his mates all start disappearing. So this huge ripple effect that goes, like I said, more of a ripple, more of a tsunami, really, that goes through his life. In a split second, he is completely ostracized or cancelled. And really, that's what I want the story to be as to how can he in any possible way rebuild his life? Because he can't turn the clock back, he can't bring Yelp back in, he's never going to walk again. So, how is he going to deal with this terrible situation? And will anyone forgive him? I guess that's a situation. When and if can someone forgive him? And I guess that's one of the big themes of the book is forgiveness. Because I think we do live in a sort of blame culture at the moment where it's very easy to criticize and ostracize and people are written out, so to speak. At what point can you go? Do you know what? I think they've suffered enough. I think they've made a mistake, they've apologized for it as much as they ever can, but you have to somehow find it in yourself to forgive them, really. And that was an interesting thing to write in the book with all the different characters, and they all look at Raw Reef through slightly different lenses depending on who they are and their view of what he's done. And for me as a writer, that was a sort of fascinating thing to explore, that whole thing of blame and forgiveness, really.

Katy 15:59

And the blame in the sort of social media environment.

Malcolm 16:03

And all the hate that comes through. I didn't want the whole story to be all about mobile phones, and obviously they play a part in it, but obviously he they will have his haters when his parents take his phone off him, which they probably would do at that time. And when he finally gets it back, as you can imagine, it's filled all with hate and rumors and gossip and goodness knows and what and lies and half-truths, which again I think is true of social media a lot of times, and people hear a little bit of a story and make up the full thing themselves. So, but I didn't want the whole story to be all about social media. I think it plays a part, but not the whole part, because it wasn't brought about by social media, but it plays a part and it shows the power of the mobile phone, really, in certainly in the lives of young people.

Katy 16:42

How did you try and make people care about him? How hard was that? Because you well it was interesting because when I first started reading him, I just thought he's quite annoying.

Malcolm 16:54

And I deliberately, most of my characters in the book aren't annoying, and they're always the victims in a funny sort of way. And in a way, this guy, Rory, is the opposite of that. I think I wanted it to be a slow burn. I didn't want overnight to have this sort of road to Damascus moment where something incredible happens. And I think it very slowly occurs. I think particularly when he meets the older character in the book, Tanker, who in some ways is the opposite of Rory, but in some ways he's very similar to him because he's had an incredibly tough life and lots of things have gone wrong for him. And I think this is a real eye-opener for Rory because I think he's feeling very sorry for himself, clearly, and the world is against him. And he finally meets this person who for whom very little has gone right in their life. His marriage has broken up and he was veteran in the Falklands War. And I wanted him to be aware that there are other people in the world who are having far bigger problems than he ever has, yet somehow getting on with it. And I think for me that was an important part of the book that there had to be a moment, but it had to be quite gradual, where Rory realized that there were much, much bigger problems in the world than the one he was facing. Although all he could think about in I guess in his small world was him and his problems. That there were lots of other people out there dealing with much bigger things than I guess that he'd ever have to deal with himself. And I guess also was the relationship of Yell, the boy, and his feelings to it. Because I think it needs at the end of the book, and for those who haven't read it, some sort of closure between those two. Because obviously Rory has brought this upon Yell. And could Yell ever find it in himself to forgive him? And I think that that is central to the whole thing. And it's all about I think Rory trying to find peace of mind at the end of it. I don't like stories that end in a way that everything is wrapped up. I like it to be a little bit open-ended because I think life is like that. Uh, and I think my books are all like that. They don't come to a final conclusion. But I like to think that Rory finds some sort of peace within himself in amongst all this chaos and all these haters, if you like.

Katy 18:49

Yeah.

Ali 18:50

I really like Tanker.

Malcolm 18:52

No, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, he's a very tanker is very cantankerous. Yeah, he's a fun character. Yeah, and again, loosely based on a person that I managed to track down who was a Falklands War veteran, an amazing character, who was actually shot by the Argentinian in the fight for Mount Longdon, who was an amazing character. But yeah, I really enjoyed writing him, and he was a sort of a devil make a character, very much older than Rory, but with just a different view of life, and very much done there, seen that got the t-shirt sort of character. But yeah, he was fun to write.

Ali 19:21

And then you got to put a bit of your original, your home Geordian.

Malcolm 19:26

Yeah, always managed to squeeze a bit of Newcastle in there, apart from my book about the Ukraine war, which I don't think there are many Geordi Ukrainians. I think there's a Geordie element in all my books. I quite like doing that because I think it's probably an area slightly underrepresented in books. I know there are authors from the great authors from the northeast, but there probably aren't too many books with a Geordie accent in. So I think where relevant, I'll always sneak one in.

Katy 19:48

Yeah, I think you have to be a Geordie to write a Geordie accent because I think it's yeah, yeah.

Malcolm 19:52

And he's quite broad tanked. I've made him broader than some of my other ones. Because I think again, I think my publishing one story was saying, can he tone it down a bit? And I thought, no, I'm gonna turn this up. I'm gonna go, I'm gonna turn the volume up. Yeah.

Katy 20:03

But he also he does add a bit of humor there as well. There's the quest for crisps, the mixture of quite eventful but also just funny, and it lightens it up a bit. Um there there is that sense it's it's never gonna end well.

Malcolm 20:19

I really believe in having humour in all of my stories. There's a quote, I think it was Graeme Green once said, When a situation is overwhelmingly serious, the only thing to do is laugh. And I think there's some truth in that, and I think a lot of soldiers and military people have got a very sort of sense of black humour. But I really like that in my books. There are certain books that I think maybe can only have one tone but can be a bit depressing. And I think for the people who read my book, Young Adults Well and Adults, I like to sugar the pill where necessary or where relevant. Obviously, I have to be careful that I don't diminish the story or get the tone wrong. But I think where I can, I will always put humour or twist that I've got a bit of a comedic side because I think that for me that reflects life as well, even in the darkest moments. Sometimes there can be room for humour and laughter.

Katy 21:05

No, it did make me laugh. I did cry quite a lot reading this book, I have to say, but I did laugh as well. So it does bring both bits. You did a lot of research for the book, and obviously, Tanker, you've mentioned, was with Falkland's veteran and had complex PCSD, and you worked with combat stress, but you also worked with the Spinal Injuries Association.

Malcolm 21:28

Yeah, and I I wanted to speak to a young person who'd suffered a spinal injury. Well, obviously, there are people who are born and have to be in a wheelchair from early days, but I wonder someone who'd had that sudden moment, a bit like Yell. And I spoke to a guy from the spinal injuries unit who'd had a terrible accident. I think he was only about 20 when he was in Thailand and he came off a scooter. And to this day, he doesn't know what happened, but he was by the side of the road and he'd seriously damaged his spine, and it there had to be an air ambulance, flew him back. And again, his story was amazing because he said. Here I am, like a 20-year-old guy, couldn't move, my whole life is gone. Imagine he went into sort of deep depression. He said he had amazing support from his family and all the experts around him. But he said it was really tough to begin with to deal with that thing that knowing that he was never going to run again. But what was amazing to hear was that he'd come through the other side of it now, and I think he's going to get married and he's got his own flat and he's got a job now, and that life looked so much better. But I can imagine for a lot of people in that circumstance, there's that moment in time when you think that that's it, my life is was over. He was a great example of someone who's come through all that and was incredibly positive and is now a great advocate to help other people in similar circumstances who you threw no fault of their own find themselves in a wheelchair. But I think the world is getting better in that regard. The Paralympics, I think, has helped massively in that respect to raise the profile of people who have various injuries and how sport can be a big way back into getting back into your fun and involvement in society again. But Dave was amazing. But I also had my own experience of my mum, and that came as a bit of a shock to us because in her later life, she spent the last two years of her life uh in a wheelchair. She lost the use of her legs, and she'd been a very mobile woman, she loved walking, she was a huge walker, but yeah, her limbs just stopped working, and that came obviously as a huge shock to us. But just the simplest things were the hardest things because she wasn't the biggest woman, but just trying to get her into a car was just like my brother's a really big guy, and I'm reasonably strong, but just the smallest things were difficult. And thinking, can we go to this restaurant or can we go to this pub and have they got wheelchair access? And and I mentioned some of that in the book, even just simple things like a little curb to us, it's no problem at all. But if you're in your wheelchair, how do you get up that curb and how can you do it? And we found out with my mum. Unfortunately, she had to go into a care home, a bit like tanker, because the house she was living with, my sister, it was just unusable. She couldn't actually get the wheelchair into the toilet and the rooms are too small. And I think that happens to quite a few people that the houses just aren't fit for purpose, and the only place they can go to is a care home, which has got wider corridors and what have you. But so yeah, there was a learning experience there for my mum as well.

Katy 24:10

Yeah, I think it was interesting with Yell that although you didn't shy away from the life-changing impact of the injury, he was no, I wouldn't say positive, but he he refused to be disempowered by it. And there was just a sense that he was gonna get on with things. And I suppose because you could have made it very disempowered and helpless and about things that were happening to him, whereas actually you he had agency. And I think that was quite important, really, in terms of representing that, that it wasn't just this had happened to him, and he was just not an active player in responding to it.

Malcolm 24:48

Exactly. Yeah, I think what I wanted Yell to be like, and I'm sure it happens with a lot of people, is that they want to get on in their life, and actually the impact is more on those around them, and especially his sister. And I can imagine there'll be circumstances where that does happen where one person says, This has happened to me, I've just got to get on with it, yet the other person, who it hasn't happened to, can't accept that. They can't have that sense of closure. And I thought, again, that was a really interesting dynamic. There's one particular scene where all three of them meet outside Yellow's house, and Lauren really can't come to terms with what has happened. Yeah, her brother has, and that's it. She can't let go, and he has. And I think again, that was as a writer, that was really something really interesting to explore.

Ali 25:28

I think that's interesting, isn't it? Because I think that happens quite a lot in life as well. That the person that something's happened to has moved on, but the people around them really struggle to.

Malcolm 25:38

Exactly. Yeah. I suppose it's like when someone's sick, that person, however sick they are in hospital, whatever. I guess they feel to some sense I've just got to get on with it. But that person watching, their relative or friend, somehow suffers, but in a different way, because they don't want to see that person suffering. But the person who is suffering, there's that's I've just got to get on with it. There's nothing else I can do. Yeah. But there's almost that sense of feeling that they really want to help, but they don't know how to. I'm sure we've all been in a situation with someone that we know and love has been suffering or they've they've got something over in hospital. And it in that sense of lacking power, that there's nothing you can do apart from feel sorry or sometimes angry as to what's happened to them. And again, I think I really wanted to explore that side of it.

Katy 26:20

At the center of it is this whole question of both blame, shame, guilt, all of those really tricky issues that we just seem to be dealing with across the board. What were the kind of main things that you were grappling with there and you wanted to people to take away and think about? Because it is very much a book that sits with you and you take away and think about, isn't it?

Malcolm 26:39

Empathy is a big thing, and a lot of my books have been chosen for their level of empathy. And I think that is at the heart of the story in the same way that you think, what is life like in that person's shoes? And what thereby for the grace of God went I, both from Rory's viewpoint as to what he's done to Yell, but from other people's viewpoints. That I think in the heat of the moment, people can often say, You're to blame, you made this mistake. But to what extent is he blameworthy? And and I love that, because things are rarely black and white, that there is elements of Yel played a part, and yes, something did go wrong, but was he deliberate in doing that? And how much did he push him into it? And how much was he cajoled into it? And I love exploring those sort of grey areas of guilt. And I think Rory goes through that himself. He doesn't see himself as guilty as other people see him. And I'm sure I'm sure that can happen a lot in life. I'm sure we can all relate to that when we've done something and someone is angry with us and go, yes, I did a bad thing, but it's not as bad as you think it is. And I personally don't carry that guilt in the way that you'd like me to. And I think, again, that was a really interesting thing to explore with someone like Rora because this moment has really ruined his life to a large extent, and not in the way that it has with Yell, but it has. He's lost his friendship and issues with his girlfriend and his family. So yeah, I just think that the whole area we'd blame is a really fascinating one. And we see it play out on social media where somebody does something or says something, and that cancel culture seems to have quietened down a little bit. The heat seems to have come off that, but I know it wasn't so long ago when writers were being cancelled for writing about people they shouldn't have been writing about, and I think that people were treading on eggshells quite a lot. I think it's still there to some degree, but I think it's perhaps a bit less than it was. I think politicians get it all the time. There are always people calling for heads, and you go, Yeah, to what extent are they guilty? And to what extent do you have to take the ultimate sacrifice by resigning? And again, that that's quite a fascinating thing that we say played out in the political field almost every day. But it can happen in personal lives as well, to enormous the extent to which what can Rory do about it? The mistake is gone, in it's gone past. How can he ever make up for what was been and gone? And I think these, as a writer, these are all fascinating things to explore, the nuances of it. And again, I don't like to give people the answers. I like people to make their own mind up as to and some people will, as to how guilty or how bad people think Rory is. And again, if you have half a dozen people, they might all have slightly different views on that. But to me, that that's what a book should be about.

Katy 29:11

And I think what's really clever about it is that it's not just about Rory and Yell. Nobody is blameless in that book. The way they've reacted and the assumptions that they've jumped to, or the things that they've done because of what they've decided has happened. Um they all come out of it slightly differently and all are forced to perhaps rethink what they thought about and how they responded, right down to the head teachers. It's always good to put head head teacher in a tricky.

Malcolm 29:38

I always like to have a bit of that. There's always quite a bit of that in my books, just to not exactly get their comeuppance, but yeah, that because also schools are an interesting one as well. To what extent schools have to take responsibility when something goes bad. Is it their responsibility to make that people better or get rid of them? And I'm sure there is that viewpoint. If you've got a bad apple in the school, it's gonna affect others who need to get rid of him, or the reverse view is no, it's our duty to look after that child, and I'm sure these debates go on in schools on a daily basis.

Katy 30:08

So there's masses in it, and if people think that they've heard about what happens in the story and have read the blurb, there is a big twist at the end. It's got all of that as well. So you will cry, you will laugh, and and you won't necessarily see exactly where it's all going.

Malcolm 30:25

Yeah.

Ali 30:26

And all there's some writers that you've looked to when writing for young people that have shaped your writing at all.

Malcolm 30:32

Yeah. I'm reading all the time. I love Sarah Crosson's books. I'm reading her new book at the moment, her thriller. Yeah. And I just I love her. I know she writes in a completely different style to me, but I just love her sense of detail, and there's always so much emotion in her stories as well. I'm sure you probably read one and they're just jam-packed full of emotion and insight, and they're just so sparse, yet so cleverly written. And I think I write in a very sparse way as well. You do, yeah. And I like to write that way. I'm not a hugely descriptive writer, I'm not nothing against that. And writers are brilliant. So there are some people who have walk across a room and they'll spend two pages writing about it, whereas I will just have the person walk across the room and get on. And I really like that sparse style of writing. The other writer I really admire is Matt Hay. I think he's not only a great YA author, he's a great adult author. And again, all of his books are very different, and he uses humour, I think, to a fantastic effect in in all of his books. And he's got a very distinctive style. I try not to wait by the authors, but I think every time I read a book, whoever it is, I try to up my game because sometimes you read a great book and go, right, but that's brilliant. Not that I need to try harder, but I'm gonna need to look at things a bit more differently, or sometimes think, oh, I need to put more effort into that, or put more into the emotional, put more into the dialogue, or whatever. That's the thing with books. There's always room for improvement. There's a quote I've quite often used, which is a work of art is never finished, only abandoned. And I think that is so true of writing that I often say when I give talks, I say, I don't read my books once I've finished them. I've been through them because I know I will find tiny little things that annoy me that 99.9% of people won't even notice, but I will. And I go, why did I have that slight repetition there? Or that could have ended slightly differently. I guess as a writer, you beat yourself up. So yeah, that's what we do.

Katy 32:16

I think it's really interesting you first mentioned Sarah Crosson, because when I first started reading the book, I had this thing of, is it in verse? Because it is very sparsely written. I wonder whether this comes from your copy editing background. Yeah, possibly. Every word really earns its place. So it's a bit like a verse novel in that it is quite a fast read because they're quite short sentences and you move through quite quickly. Is that a style that has just come from what you're used to, or is it something that you've deliberately tried to do because of the audience that you are aiming at?

Malcolm 32:50

I think a bit of both, really. Some of it is it's a style of writing which I like. I like things to have a certain pace to them. And I'm also very cognizant of the audience I'm aiming at, which is young adults, and they want things a bit faster paced and shorter chapters. But funny enough, I think I've also learned a lot because I've done a bit of screenwriting in my time and I've written a few short films. I think I've actually learnt a lot from screenwriting. And I think other writers can. And I'll just give you one example. I remember once somebody said any scene in a film, whether it's five seconds or five minutes, must do one of two things. You must either learn something about the character or move the plot along. And I've never forgotten that. Sometimes I'll write a piece and think, have I actually moved anything on here? Has the pace picked up, or have I just got people talking? And I think you can learn a lot from you know because screenplays are basically stories, but in a shorter time length. And they are very condensed. And I think in the in in the few screenplays that I've written, you're always condensing and dancing. And I feel that's what writing's all about. It's almost, I guess, when you when you're baking and you distill something down and you distill it and still it and get it enriched and richer. But yeah, I do like things to be short and punchy. I'm sort of averse really to not really long paragraphs, but sometimes if someone will send me an email and they haven't broken it up. And even just the way something looks on a page, I sometimes go, that is so indigestible. I'll sometimes open a book in a bookshop and go, I can't read that. Not that my eyesight's bad. It's just too dense. It is just, I guess, is the way that some people write. But I like something that's going to be amenable and reachable, and sometimes just blocks and blocks of words. I just I just think, why couldn't they have broken it up? Could they not have had a few? But that maybe that's just my personal thing.

Ali 34:28

But that also, Malcolm leaves space for your own imagination, doesn't it? To kind of put the back of the story.

Malcolm 34:34

But sometimes the less story in yeah, the less you say the better. And sometimes what you leave out as important as what you put in. And I think sometimes when I'm writing a story, I'll go, do you know what? I'm not going to explain that. I'm going to leave that to the reader. And I think readers are intelligent. So you you can put way too much stuff in. You can put too little in as well. You can make people so confused they just don't know what's going on. But it's all about finding that balance.

Katy 34:57

Yeah.

Ali 34:57

Cool.

Katy 34:58

It's not been out very long, but have you been in schools with it? Have you had response to it?

Malcolm 35:02

No, I'm about to. Yeah. I've got my first school visits coming up in the next few weeks. I've got lots of schools knocking on my door saying, When can you come in? Um it's a tricky time of year for schools because they've got exams. So a lot of them want me to use the halls, but of course the halls are all used for exams. So it's a bit of a tricky sort of time of year. Some of them may, in sort of July time or late June, have some free space in the halls. But it's all about finding that space. And obviously, yes, I could go in and do smaller classes, which I have done, but I think they prefer it when I can do a whole school year and I can have three or four hundred people in the schools. But I will be doing it.

Katy 35:35

You'll have a busy autumn.

Malcolm 35:37

I will definitely have a busy autumn. I've got lots of schools want one.

Katy 35:40

So you've had a wide range of amazing reviews and lots of adults talking about how great it is. Have you had any feedback from young people yet?

Malcolm 35:47

I haven't as yet, but I guess I will be very soon because I'm going to go out there and be speaking to people who have read the book because a lot of adults have read it and the reviews have been amazing. But I'm really keen to know what the core target audience, the young adults, make of it, especially boys, to see if I've hit the nail on the head. I'm very excited to hear that.

Katy 36:04

Yeah. Yeah. We were going to ask about that because apparently boys are the hardest audience. It's one of the themes of the National Year of Reading that boys are the ones who are least likely to read. Do you consciously write with them in mind?

Malcolm 36:15

Yeah, funny enough, my publisher likes me to write with them in mind. Although the book Seven Million Sunflowers is written for the viewpoint of the Ukrainian girl. And I think for me it was right for that book. But yeah, I like writing from a male perspective because I'm all myself. I remember what it was like. Yeah, I've got no issue with that. Because I guess there are more books written by women and for women. So again, I think anything that I can do to be different, whether it's setting things on the Northeast or whether Geordie tone of voice or from a male perspective has got to be good. And again, I see it as a challenge because I know young men don't like reading quite so much. So I guess it's my mission, should I wish to accept it, is to try and write the sort of book that a young adult male will really enjoy and find a page to and hopefully get them away from their mobile phone for a few seconds and go to you know what, this is really enjoyable. Because I found that from my other books. I've heard great feedback from librarians and students themselves. Some have said, I've never read a book before, and I absolutely love this. And I didn't realise there were books like this. Well, actually, I take it as a big compliment that I've written in a tone of voice and in a style that they like and find engaging. So yeah, man, hopefully those comments will be coming back for this. I hope so. Fingers crossed.

Ali 37:25

Fingers crossed. Absolutely. Fingers crossed. Because this is always the thing with authors. Whatever you're working on now is not necessarily what you're going into the world to talk about. So is there something in the works one?

Malcolm 37:35

Oh, yeah, I'm working on a new book already. I tended to leave myself a bit of a breathing gap and just enjoy the launch of this book and do the visits and what have you. But an idea came to me a couple of months ago that I couldn't shake off, and that's I've always find that's a good sign. So I've started writing that and plotting it. I'm in the middle of plotting. In fact, sometimes I can't stop myself writing the first few chapters because sometimes I just do. Um and I might well change them further down the line. But I really enjoyed those first few chapters, and I'm just really plotting it, and I need to do quite a lot of research. And I thought, you know, I'm not going to write any more until I've done my research because it's probably going to inform me as the way the characters behave and what they do. And so I've got another call with someone next week to do some more research. But yeah, I'm very excited by it. Who knows when it'll be out, but yeah.

Ali 38:20

And then you're back into this world to talk about it in the Yeah, yeah, hopefully.

Malcolm 38:24

Yeah, hopefully. And also I'm keen to write an adult book as well. So yeah.

Ali 38:27

Okay. Okay.

Malcolm 38:28

So watch the space, yeah.

Katy 38:30

So thank you. So it's been great talking to you.

Malcolm 38:34

it's great talking to you, Kate and Ali.

Ali 38:40

Hope you enjoyed that. But a bit of a chat about boys and girls and risk, um whether girls take less risks than boys. And we we all kind of agreed on that, but I don't know reflecting on it whether that's a bit of an old-fashioned view. Interesting to know what other people think.

Katy 38:56

I think girls just grow up more at that age, or maybe they just take different risks. They do feel more sensible at that age than boys do. I don't know. I have you've had a teenage boy.

Ali 39:06

yeah. I think it is it feels as a parent that that's true. Yeah. That boys might just get into trouble for no good reason, you know, just by being daft.

Katy 39:22

Yeah. It's not as thought through. So girls, I think, do take risks, but I think they're more calculated or they have a more they've thought about them more. But it just feels like boys, it is a bit as in the book, well, there's nothing to do. Yeah. So we're gonna invent our own fun a bit. But I it's not a bleak book.

Ali 39:41

No, not at all.

Katy 39:42

I mean Um it could it could have been, but it's not. And it's great to have books that are about that age teenage boy, because then they're not the most common topic to have books about, really. No, they're not. And hopefully it will appeal to that readership because they're also not well known for reading. I think it's actually it's one of those books that I feel that I could recommend it to people who would not necessarily see themselves as being enthusiastic readers, but I think they would enjoy and engage with that book. I can

Ali 40:15

Yeah, definitely.

Katy 40:15

Because there are when we search around for books to recommend to yeah, eight, nine boys, it's difficult. But I think it's also a book that girls would enjoy. There are lots of books that teenage girls will enjoy, and you can recommend to them. There are fewer books that teenage boys will enjoy, and this one I think would be enjoyed by both. Yeah, I think so. Did you want to flag another YA book?

Ali 40:38

Uh the other book that I've just read is The Boy I Hardly Know, which is by Lisa Heathfield. It's published by Anderson, I think. Yep. That was really interesting. It's a tricky book in that it's about two sisters who are fostered, and the older sister is clearly taking risks, actually, having just said girls take risks. Take risks. Um, and she is excluded from school and moved at no notice out of her foster home into a more restrictive regime where she's effectively locked up in a with other children. They go out to school, but it's a locked door kind of policy. And she meets a boy who she gets on with really well, and they run away together, ostensibly to find her sister, and the kind of experience of what happens, and actually, in some ways, it feels much older than a dead straight line, because the risk they're taking anyway, you need to read it, but the risk that they're taking could have had very fatal consequences. Right. Um and it it's really well written, it's really well put together, and you will cry.

Katy 41:53

Okay, I've got that to look forward to.

Ali 41:55

Yeah, but it's worth it's worth really worth a read. And again, they felt like voices you don't hear very often.

Katy 42:01

Sounds good. Okay, brilliant.

Ali 42:03

Well, see you next time.

Katy 42:04

See you next time.