Wild Magic with Abiola Bello

In this episode we talk with Abiola Bello - author, publisher and co-founder of the Diverse Book Awards. The third book in her Wild Magic series for younger readers is out and we talk about the success of the series - the first book just won the Sparks School Book Award prize and how kids love facts mixed in with their fiction.

Abiola is as ever very busy and we talk about her third book in the Marcus Rashford series and also a 'new adult' book coming out next year that she is on a deadline to finish.

The independent publisher Hashtag Press which Abiola co-founded with Helen Lewis is celebrating its 10th anniversary this year. As one of the first independent publishers focussing on diverse authors and books they have been on quite a journey. They are currently Crowdfunding to safeguard their next ten years and you can find details of that here.

Abiola's books can be found here:

Younger Readers

Wild Magic - Legend of the Black Lion (illustrated by Emma McCann)

Wild Magic - Journey of the Lost Elephant (illustrated by Emma McCann)

Wild Magic - Escape of the Sea Turtles (illustrated by Emma McCann)

Middle Grade

Emily Knight - I am

Emily Knight - I am... Power

Emily Knight - I am... Becoming 

Emily Knight - I am... Awakened

Marcus Rashford The Breakfast Club Adventures - The Movie Monster

Marcus Rashford The Breakfast Club Adventures - The Sleepover Sabotage 

Marcus Rashford The Breakfast Club Adventures - The Haunted Disco (Oct 2026)

YA

Love in Winter Wonderland

Only for the Holidays

The Love Dare

New Adult

Pretty Little Pledges (Aug 2027)

Transcript

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Katy 0:11

Hi, I'm Katy.

Ali 0:13

I'm Ali.

Katy 0:13

And welcome to Mostly Book Talk.

Ali 0:15

In this episode, we talk to Abiola Bello about her various books and with her all of her different hats on. We mainly focus on the Wild Magic series. And since we've recorded this, she is the proud recipient of the Spark Book Awards for the 7 Plus category for her first book in the series Wild Magic, The Legend of the Black Lion.

Katy 0:37

Yeah. So enjoy.

Ali 0:43

We are very pleased to have with us today Abiola Bello, who's the author of books from early readers through middle grade NYA. She's a co-founder of Hashtag Press, one of the UK's first diverse children's publishers, the Diverse Book Awards and the Inc. Prize for Independently Published Children's Books. We're talking to us today about the third book in her wild magic series, Escape of the Sea Turtles. So welcome, Abiola, and welcome back, I should say. You seem to be one of the busiest people in children's publishing at the moment.

Katy 1:12

You had four books out last year, is that right?

Abiola 1:15

No, it wasn't as fun as it sounds. I don't know if it sounds fun actually, but it wasn't that fun. It was actually quite chaotic. And then this year I was like, oh, okay, I've got two out beginning of the year, then I can just focus on writing, and then there's another Rashford coming out in October. And I was like, oh, okay. So yeah, that's interesting.

Katy 1:35

So Abiola's got a really interesting history and publishing and backstory. And we have a great interview with her from 2024, which gives a lot of that. So if you haven't listened, why not go listen? But Abiola, just for people who have been very remiss and haven't listened to that full interview, can you just give us a quick recap of how you came into publishing? Because it's quite an unusual route, isn't it?

Abiola 1:57

Yeah. I started writing when I was about eight years old, just for fun, because I just love to read books. Then when I got into year seven, we did like a crave writing exercise, and then my teacher called me up. I thought maybe I was in trouble because I used to get in trouble a lot in school. And she was just like, What do you want to be when you're older? And I was like, Oh, well, tennis player, because my mum wants me to be. I'm not that talented tennis. And she's the one, you become an author. And I was like, Is that even a real job? And she said, Yeah, it's a real job. We can get paid to write stories. And I was like, Oh, that makes sense. My parents were like, it doesn't make sense. It's stupid. Your teacher's an idiot. They were very against it. And I was like, No, I think I can do this. But then the question was, how do you do this? I have no idea. I've never met anyone who works in publishing. I went to uni, which I hated, ended up leaving. And so I just taught myself the industry. I tried to get a work experience at Random House when it was just random house. And that's when I learned about things like editorial and rights. I'd never heard of this stuff before. Didn't get any work experience in Random House. Tried to work in Waterstones, couldn't get a job. And I was like, it's just working against me. So I just basically decided to invest in myself. I went to lots of courses to learn about publishing. I self-published my first book. Then I got an agent because everyone said you need an agent. And I thought, okay, I've got my agent now. That's fantastic. And then we got offered a book deal for my Emily series. And then they made everyone redundant. Yeah. So then my book was off the table. And then nothing happened from then. And then I started meeting other authors. And then I started getting authors actually messaging me, asking me for advice. And I was kind of like, I just, I'm just winging this. I don't know if I'm doing anything well. And then I met Helen. No, my friend actually met Helen at an event. And she thought my friend was a publicist. And she wasn't, she's just a good little chat. And she gave my friend her card. So I messaged Helen and I was like, I don't have any money. So I don't know what you want to do. And Helen's like, okay, that's what within your budget. And she got me lots of great PR marketing for Emily. And then I remember I spoke to Virgin startup. They were looking for young people who want to start a business and they wanted to invest in them. And I was like, oh, maybe me and Helen should do something together. Bear in mind, me and Helen didn't know each other in that way. I think I met her maybe once, but we seemed to get along well. And I just kind of told her and she was like, okay. So then we kind of put this whole pitch together, got the money, started up the author school, which was great because that's when I managed to get agents and editors there very easily to talk about publishing. And I was like, oh, this is why I wanted to learn. And then I started making contacts from there. And then that's when I realized that having a really good agent is important, not just having an agent. So then I looked on my agent, God bless her. And I was like, I don't think this is the right agent for me. So then it took me a while because obviously I'd been told forever you need to have an agent. And now here I am because of pain firing my agent. But I felt a bit more confident because I knew more people in the industry. I felt like I could connect. So I fired my agent. I spoke to two really good agents, and they seemed excited to sign me, but they both were going off on maternity leave. And I was just like, oh not good timing. I know. And then a lady called Stephanie Nimmo had come to the author school and she'd written this memoir, which was later called What's in the Plan. And she really liked me and Helen, and Steph is great. And she was like, I want you not to publish my memoir. We were like, we're not publishers. And I was like, maybe we should be. That was the wisest choice in life, but it's fine. And so we published Steph's book. That went into these top 10, which was amazing. It did so well, such a great book. And we're redoing that book actually this summer. And then hashtag Ben grew. And then when we had signed Steph, I then got offered a book deal for Emily. And then Helen got very nervous that we were pretending to be publishers and pretending like we do what we were doing. And she was worried we were going to mess up Steph's book. And Steph's book's memoir, it's very sad. And we were like, we can't mess this up, right? And Helen's like, we need to practice on a book. And I was like, yeah, what book? We need to practice on your book. I was like, what? And then I had to turn down this deal and give my Emily books to hashtag so we could practice. And if we messed it up, then I guess it's just my book that got messed up. And we didn't mess it up. And that's basically why Emily is published with hashtag and hashtag grew. And then in 2020, I met my agent Gemma on Twitter. She wasn't open for submissions. I actually was talking to another agent at the time. So I wasn't looking for her to be my agent. And she really liked my book. And we had a chat and I said, I'm not looking for an agent. She was like, Well, I think you should take me. And then she like persuaded me, we got along really well, and the rest is history.

Ali 6:23

Wow. That's a very good potted history. But I love the fact that hashtag you had to practice, like Helen just threw your book into the sacrificial altar to have a go at.

Abiola 6:34

The thing is, I was so confident that we could do Steph's book well, but then when it then comes to celebrati with your book, suddenly I was like, huh, hold on, how confident am I? But realistically, we didn't know what we were doing. We didn't have a sales team for two years because no one took us seriously. I don't think we took ourselves seriously. I don't know why Steph took us seriously, but she did bless her, and it worked really well. And now we've done 20 plus books and we're 10 years in.

Ali 6:58

So yeah, it's fantastic. And what we wanted to chat to you today is about your wild magic series, which is quite a different world from Emily Knight and your YA books. So it has the lovely twins, Misha and Ziggy. Where did they come from? What was the spark for those two lovely kids?

Abiola 7:15

Initially, Misha and Ziggy were sisters. That was initially my thing. My friend had been telling me to name a character after her. So I called, I think it was Misha and Zara, I think it was, because my friends named Zara. And then when we pitched it to SNS, my editor at Simon Mina was like, I think it'd be better if it was brother and sister, so that we don't thing the boy readers. I was like, okay. And she was just like, well, that Misha and a Zed name. So I thought, okay, maybe Ziggy. She goes, Oh, what about if they were twins instead? That'd be really fun. And I was like, yeah. So then my friend got kicked to the curb. But I did dedicate a second book to her.

Katy 7:54

Then that's my book. That would have been an interesting conversation. You promised her a book.

Abiola 7:58

I was like, sorry, babe, but it's so name Ziggy. And she's like, What? Begins with a Zed. I was like, they like Misha. I can't like, come on.

Katy 8:07

So you got twins. How did you decide on their backstory and grow them as characters?

Abiola 8:13

Me and my agent Gemma were just talking about shows we used to watch as kids. And I had said, Oh, there's this really great cartoon on Nickelodeon called The Wild Thornbury's. And Gemma was like, I love the Wild Thornbury's. Bear in mind, no one I talked to seems to even know what I'm talking about or didn't really love it. And I think it's a very underrated cartoon. And so we were talking about how amazing it was, how no one cares. And I was like, oh my gosh, what if I did a Wild Thornbury's on Made It Black? And we just were laughing about it. It wasn't anything serious. And this was like, I don't think I had written the YA yet. Because I had Wild Magic for quite a long time, actually. I don't think I'd even started the YA. I hadn't signed the YA, definitely not. So I started thinking about this whole pitch. And we actually had a different publisher in mind for it. And they wanted us to send like five different ideas to them. So I did a few, and then they picked two. One of them was Wild Magic. And then I just fleshed it out. Then when I got the YA deal with SNS, we just thought it probably is polite to tell them, Oh, I've got a chapter book. If you want to look at it, but we was going to go somewhere else. And then my editor was like, Yeah, do you want to write a chapter and just see if you can write in this age group? And I was like, I don't know about this age group. So I was, I just wrote it and then it worked, which was great. But I love an animal documentary. I just really just can just re-watch any animal thing a lot. And I just think there are not a lot of books that I've seen with black kids and animals and magic and adventure. I haven't seen that. I'm not in the chapter book space prior to Wild Magic. I didn't know that there wasn't a lot of chapter book options, and actually there's not a lot of black characters in chapter book, I didn't know any of that stuff. So that was interesting to learn all of that. And yeah, Wild Magic has been a fun little ride. It's the hardest book I've definitely done because it I went into it thinking everything was going to be fancy and I could just make make up an animal and just have fun. And SS are like, oh no, we need facts and we need, and I was like, what? And I did not sign up for that. So there was a lot of research, and the research gets on my nerves so much because I'll write something and I have a habit of finding information, not remembering where I got it from. So when it gets flagged, I'm like, where did I see that? And sometimes I can't find it. So they think I made it up, but I didn't make it up. I looked for it. So that can be quite annoying. They were like, oh, kids love learning facts. I was like, do they? And I was really mad about it actually, because that's not what I wanted to do. And even with the black lion, I remember years ago on Twitter, it was this black lion that went viral. It was jet black. And everyone was like, oh my god, this is amazing. I was like, oh my god, this is so cool. And I think a year later everyone was like, oh, it was Photoshop, it's not really a thing. But there were black lions, not obviously like that, but there were black lions lived in Ethiopia. And I was like, that's really cool. Oh my gosh, I should say something about this. I don't know why I thought I had to, but I did. And that's where the black lion came from. But when we initially start in the book, I wanted it to be based on the viral one, like jet black and really cool. And they were like, no, we can't just make stuff up. And I was like, what when they were like, oh no, it's gonna be like non-fiction too. And I was like, no, it's not. I was so angry because I didn't want to do that.

Ali 11:14

Yeah, so it has to be branded in facts, but they do have special powers, don't they? Magical powers.

Abiola 11:19

They do. I got my way in in some ways. So yeah, I could have my little magic in there. So yeah, they have their magical powers, and I thought it would be fun that the twins had this special connection with animals. Their dad was a wildlife too presenter, and he just doesn't know what's going on. And I thought that was just a really fun, cute thing that the kids could do.

Katy 11:36

So tell us about their powers. What powers do they have for people who haven't read the books?

Abiola 11:40

So Misha can speak to animals, and Ziggy can shape shift into animals, but only these close to them. And once he's shapeshifted once into animal, he can always then do it. And he can speak to animals as well once he's in animal form. But as a human, he can't. So there's lots of debates with kids when I go to school. They're like, I think Ziggy has the best power because he can. I'm just like, but Misha can always be on. So I don't know about that. But yeah, so Misha's probably a bit more sensible with things. Ziggy just gets very excited about everything. He just goes head first. And they're really cute. They don't really fight, they have a very sweet relationship. They've inherited these powers from their mother and their grandmother. And their grandma, who lives in Nigeria, has told them to keep it a secret because when their mum was known in the town to have this power, they thought she was like a witch and really dangerous. So they were like, keep it secret. You can't even tell your dad this. And their mum just loves being an animal. So she's just gone somewhere. So I've met her. I don't know how that plays out. She's gone. Yeah, and they're with their dad and they hang out with their grandparents and they have a very sweet little family.

Katy 12:46

So when you go in schools and the kids argue over which is the best power, which one do they come down on?

Abiola 12:52

I think they're mainly drawn to Ziggy because once he's an animal, then he can speak as well and he has Misha's power. So I think they're kind of drawn to Ziggy. And some kids have been like, I feel bad for Misha because she can't down. I was like, Misha's fine. So yeah, as you said, we're drawn to Ziggy. But I think Misha has the best power because I think she's always on the ball with it. Whereas Ziggy's not necessarily always on the ball with it. Bless him.

Ali 13:14

Yeah, she definitely feels like she's running the show a bit. And we need to think about things because in this one, like he'd not twig that with granny and grandad on the trip because they go as a whole big family, don't they? In this one, that they wouldn't be able to talk to the animals because they'd be being watched too closely. But I love the grandparents in this because they're like, we're not going to babysit.

Abiola 13:35

I know. They're basically my parents. My parents' names, and it's basically how they would rally. Even the scene where they go to the airport and grandma's over the limit and they're having to repack it. That's my mom every trip. I don't know what some of it does she know more to nice. Yeah, she knows. That is her. So every reaction they have is exactly how they would react with things. They would refuse to babysit and they would be like, We're going to the beach, and we don't know what you're doing all day when we're going to the beach. And that's what they would do.

Katy 14:01

So you've you've managed the device of getting rid of one of the parents really well in terms of the mother deciding she prefer to be an animal. I can get that. There'll probably, if there are moments in motherhood where I can definitely see opting out, joining the animal kingdom, would have been a good choice. We're left with their dad as a single parent. And was that a conscious decision to have a dad as the sort of the main parent in the book? Because there aren't many dads who have those positive models or that show that positive relationship in books, and there are even fewer black dads.

Abiola 14:36

I think I knew I wanted their dad to be a wildlife TV presenter. I don't think I thought about the mum until I thought, oh, they can get their power from their mum. Oh, maybe their mum could just be an animal. And I think that's where it came in. And I think on some level, I don't read a lot of books about single dads. And I just like the idea of one just being super present, even though he's traveling a lot, he's still very much there when they're there and paying attention. And I just like the idea that they trick themselves into coming on his trip, and he just has no idea what his kids can do, and he just thinks it's all him and how amazing his team is, and they get all these animal shots, and he has no idea that it's their children that's getting it together. And I thought that was quite funny, but yeah, I don't think on purpose I sat up being like, okay, they're gonna be raised by a single dad. No, I just think I just wanted their dad to be the presenter, yeah.

Katy 15:24

And it would be much harder for them to get away with what they get away with if there were two parents, you feel true.

Abiola 15:31

I think so. And like in World Fawn Brees, there's like a mum and a dad, and the dad is quite aloof, and the mum is always a dad because I think she films him, but she's always still paying attention to what's going on at home. So yeah, the mum is always like still like that, like looking, whereas I think dads aren't necessarily like like he just gets local people to watch his kids. Like he's just yeah, they're fine, do you know what I mean?

Ali 15:55

I've had an email with them, they seem fine.

Abiola 15:57

He says, We'll see you at dinner, and he's has no idea where his kids are the whole day. And I think it just works well for the book and for the kids, yeah.

Ali 16:04

See, we're in Mexico for this one, which is brilliant with sea turtles. How did you choose? Because there's just three in the series, isn't there? I don't think there's a plan to do any more. How did you decide the three different places or the three different stories?

Abiola 16:17

Yeah, so the first one was easy because I wanted to do the whole black lion thing and they they're in Ethiopia. And I really loved that they were in Ethiopia because I've never read a book about Ethiopia. I actually didn't know anything about Ethiopia, or that I knew so many people who were Ethiopians, that was eye-opening for me. So that was really cool doing that one. And then the second one, I wanted to do elephants because I feel like everyone loves elephants, and I loved the whole thing with elephants about when an elephant dies, how they mourn them and they go and pay respects. I thought that was just so cool. The problem with book two is when I said, Oh, yeah, it's mean India, I was like, wait, where do elephants go in India? Because I was just thinking of the cities and stuff, and I was like, wait, where are they? So that took a bit of research, and there's a herd called the Moniker herd that actually does this route from Kerala to Tamonadu, and that's how I did that one. And then the third one, do you know what? So the third one I kind of said as a joke, and it just stuck. Basically, I just re-watched Finding Nemo. I love the Sea Turtles, and I was like, oh my gosh, I should do sea turtles, and my friend had just gone to Metzgo, oh my gosh, she needs Metsco. And then I kind of said it, and then after I changed my mind, I was like, Oh, I don't think I want to do sea turtles, I don't want to do it. And then SS were just stuck on the sea turtles and they wouldn't let it go. And I was like, No, I want to do some. I was like, no, no, we really think, and I was like, I don't want to do it. I had a black and full fight as pages, obviously I lost. And then when I started doing research on it and found out they were like, had been in the dinosaurs and the plastic pollution, I was like, actually, this is actually really fun. So yeah, but I kind of said sea turtles because of Nemo, and then I changed my mind, but it was too late.

Ali 17:50

Did you get to go? Have you been to any of the locations?

Abiola 17:53

I have not been to any of these locations, but what's been really interesting, especially book two, I had a school tour for Wild Magic. So I was with lots of bookshops who were taking me around, and I would mention writing this book in India setting Kerala to Mana do. And all of them were like, oh my gosh, we're backpacking around there. And I was like, What? I'd never even heard of these places. So they gave me such good information, and then in my old flat, I was selling one of the girls there, and she was like, Oh, you're from Kerala. I was like, What? So yeah, it was just so eye-opening. So I ended up meeting loads of people from these places I didn't know about, and yeah, they gave me great fat. So it was awesome. And then my friend literally goes to Mexico every year, so I was like, When you're there, just send me videos and just tell me about your day. And she was like, What do you mean? I said, Tell me that about the food. And she was gonna be like, All right, oh, there's a blue flower here, and she just say random stuff. I was like, This helps visually for me, so yeah. So and I give her a task, be like, see if you can find this and what does it look like and stuff. So between all of these people, I was able to bring it to life in a way that hopefully makes it feel like I've been there.

Ali 18:53

Definitely, and the illustrations are a huge part, aren't they? From Emma McCann.

Abiola 18:58

Yeah.

Ali 18:59

What's it been like working over the three books? How do you work together to put them together?

Abiola 19:04

Yeah, Emma's awesome. So basically, when we signed Wild Magic, I think it got put on pause because of the YA books. When we got back onto it, I think the assumption was I wanted a black illustrator, which I actually had never said. And I was like, no, I just want someone who is a good illustrator. So I found a list of people that had been part of the Divest Book Awards actually, and was looking at all their stuff. And I think we got down to three illustrators I really liked. Emma was one of them, and Emma was just the most on it, to be honest. She was just very quick. I love her drawings because I loved Serena Patel's books a lot, and she was just really excited to do it. So work with her has been great. How it usually works is obviously I write the text and then SNS will pick out the images, and then Emma will draw, sketch of them, and then send them to me. Then I'll say whatever I need to say about some of the notes, or I might suggest a different picture. And then she does the final design. It's quite straightforward, actually. And then she sent me a few, she's done two now draw with me videos. So one for Gemba the Lion and one for Shreya the Elephant, which I take into schools and they love it. And I try and draw it, not great. I try. It's been really cool working with Emma, and I just think she's just so talented. So I really have appreciated that my first chapterbook series was of her.

Katy 20:19

So I like this one where I'm showing the picture of where Ziggy's turned into the lion, and there's the look on the real lion's face when Ziggy's there, okay. She does eyes really well and eyebrows, they tell the whole story just in the eyes.

Abiola 20:35

She just brought them to life so perfectly that when they first showed me Sh and Ziggy, I was like, Oh my gosh, that's Mean Sh and Ziggy. It was perfect. So she definitely was the right person to done this.

Katy 20:45

And so you've mentioned the obviously with the turtles, there's a conservation issue with the plastic and poaching with the lions and in Ethiopia and the reduction in the elephant's habitat.

Abiola 20:58

Yeah, like deforestation.

Katy 20:59

Deforestation. That is the word I'm looking for in India. Was that part of the story that you wanted to tell? Well, why did you focus on on particularly on those ones?

Abiola 21:09

That's a good question. I probably watched a documentary and those things have come up. That's probably literally what happened. I think when I was looking up Black Lions, it came up about poaching a lot. How rare they are, how much people keep trying to find them. So I was like, okay, let's do poaching. I did wonder if poaching was a bit too serious for that age. But actually, I think it worked because when I go into schools, the kids all know what poaching is anyway, which I was quite surprised about. With the elephants migrating, I think I had seen a documentary of elephants migrating and the calf got stuck in like the mud, and the mud got caused because of some manhole thing. It was like a human era basically and the elephant got stuck in and the elephant trying to get out. And I was like, gosh, we really do mess everything up for everyone. So I wanted to focus on that and the separation. And then with the seed hurls and plastic pollution, I was aware of plastic pollution. Pollution. I don't think I understood how big plastic pollution is. And there's there was one area I don't know if I even put in the book. And it's just basically known as a place for plastic. Yeah, it's shocking actually. Yeah. And I was just like, oh my gosh. And I think it was certain things I found that like I didn't know sea turtles couldn't breathe on the water. So I was like, oh my gosh, when they get stuck, they die. What? And yeah, it was all these things. And I got really a bit angry about that. So yeah, any way to explain things that we can do, especially for children, like things like respect animals in their space. Don't throw things in their thing. Don't create hindrances for them because it could affect the babies. Just little things that kids can take away from that. So they know when they get older, God willing, they'll be better humans and will protect the animals rather than hurt them.

Ali 22:48

I think that it's really nicely done as well. Because it doesn't feel preachy. It doesn't feel like there's a message in this story. It's part of the story. Yeah. And that's quite hard to do actually. Oh, yeah. Okay. We do sometimes get books that are we go, oh, this is what they're telling everybody.

Abiola 23:06

Oh, okay. I'm just trying to show you the magic.

Ali 23:10

Yeah, I think the magic is brilliant. I think that's what gives it a lighter feel, doesn't it? Because that's what the story's all about. And this is a big issue, and there is stuff you can do about it, but you're a kid, it's not your responsibility to do this now.

Abiola 23:22

Yeah. Yeah. It does give the responsibility to like know about it and try and make good like with the kids in schools. I always say to them about the beach. When you go to the beach, it's a beautiful day. Your mum gives you an ice lolly, you put the wrapper down. And guys, I said, What's the problem with the beach? They're like, It's really big. I said, Yeah, it's big, so you can't find the bin, right? So you put the wrapper on the sand. What happens? They're like, Oh, the wind. Where does it go? In the water. I'm like, so what do we do? Put it in the bin. So it's this little thing where they understand, oh, okay, if I just do that, then I'm saving the sea turtles. I'm like, there you go.

Katy 23:52

Yeah. And the magic means that you can give the twins more agency and do impossible things. It does get that excitement and the focus for them to be able to do it, even if the solutions for the children reading it may be more simple and everyday.

Abiola 24:07

We can't all like, you know, we can't all have magic powers, sadly. Yeah, be pushed up in the air by a dolphin randomly because we can talk to them. We can't all do that, unfortunately. But you cannot put rubbish in the ocean to keep it off.

Katy 24:19

And so this is the first time you've written for the younger readers, aren't they? Sort of six and up. What was different about doing that age group from middle grade?

Abiola 24:31

The word count was different. I'm used to writing 60,000 words plus, and then this you're like 25.

Katy 24:38

Far more words than you needed. Or were you going, oh, I don't need very many, and then realizing you needed.

Abiola 24:45

I actually was not too bad with the word count, maybe because my editor was really on it. So I wasn't terrible with the word count. I think there were things like there'd be lots of things like, oh, you don't need to explain that, or you don't need to explain this. I'd be like, oh, okay. And the pace of it is quite quick, which I like. You'd have to do a lot of build-up like we did with YA. If you have to set everything up, you'd have to redo that. You can kind of show you in chapter books. And what else do I find difficult? I think it was just the research I found just difficult. And just explaining things in a way that was simple to children. I'm describing like what a coral reef was, just trying to explain it in a way that wasn't super aggressive. So yeah, it's more the non-fiction bits of it, trying to simplify it, but still getting across what you're trying to say, but then not patronising and making it too simplistic. It's just that. Or some words I might use. It might be like, oh, this seems a bit too grown. I'll be like, oh, is that like I think that's what I found quite challenging.

Katy 25:41

You've got three.

Abiola 25:42

Yes.

Ali 25:43

Are there going to be any more? Because they've been really popular. Or is this a not known yet?

Abiola 25:48

I've been told this on a break, so I don't really know what that means. So I'm taking that as a no. That's what I think. Would you want to write some more? Yeah, I love wild magic. It's really fun. I'd love to do three maybe like cold countries or something, explore like those animals. I think it'd be fun to do. There's obviously do more. I'm always down to more because I think it has done well as a series, and kids seem to like it a lot, which is really great. And also, I learn a lot doing it, which I enjoy. Even though I hate all the nonfiction parts, I'm learning a lot, and I do love to learn.

Katy 26:19

So, you know, it's like a Do you find yourself dropping those sort of new facts that you've learned into other random conversations?

Abiola 26:26

Oh, absolutely. Also, kids typically think I'm like an animal expert, which is amazing. And they'll say things and catch me out, and I get really frustrated. There's an animal all kids seem to love at the minute. Otters, maybe? Not otters. It's a very ugly looking thing, but I think it's really cute. It's got a really weird name. Begins of oh, but they all love this animal. So they will ask you questions about it. And I'm like, I was like, I don't have never heard of it. How have you not heard of it? Oh, it's I know about these three animals I've written about in this book. So some kids do catch me out.

Katy 26:57

What did we learn last week? We learned that baby platypuses are called puggles. Oh, yes.

Abiola 27:05

Oh that was cute. That is cute.

Katy 27:09

Yeah.

Abiola 27:09

Oh, I love that. No, it's not, it's not this animal, the awesome. No, it's not that. Okay. It sounds similar to it. But yeah, they all love it and they all think it's really cute, and I don't, so I got like hell for that. But kids, they're so fun because kids just love animals and murder, which is really weird.

Ali 27:26

Yeah, yeah, weirdly, both those things. Both those things.

Abiola 27:28

So it's been really fun talking to them about this book series.

Ali 27:31

I mean, what did you ask as well um about the Marcus Rashford books? Because you've done those, haven't you?

Abiola 27:36

So the Marcus Rashford books are like a spin of Scooby-Doo almost. So these kids are part of the Breakfast Club investigators, and every book they're fighting a monster that they think is real. It always turns out to not be real. And there's always like a really good message in there, like not leaving people out, being kind, like someone was envious and they worked through it. There's always some like really little cute message in there. So I'm the third co-author on the series. I'm the first girl. I'm only girl, I think, because the series is coming to an end, I think, in book 10. I'm now working on book nine, which is out in October. Yeah, and it's a fun series, to be honest with you. I think boys love it a lot, obviously, because of Rashford being a footballer. But I think there's just quite a lot of positive male energy in the book, and there's monsters and there's an adventure. So I think it ticks a lot of boxes for reluctant boy readers. The font's big and it also like changed the font on words so it's more, it's more eye-catching to look at. There's really fun pictures as well. So yeah, I think it's a really fun, cute book to work on.

Katy 28:39

So that's quite a tight deadline, is it? Turning it round for September, October.

Abiola 28:44

Yeah, the Rashford deadlines are a little bit insane, they're really tight. So this one is out in October, but I found out about because I basically I signed a two-book deal for it and the two books are done. And I found out that there was gonna be two more books and they wanted me to do it in March. At London Book Fair found out, and I was like, okay, great. But then we didn't hear anything back about it until May. And then they were like, a month, is that all right? And I was like, what? The deadlines are tight. I think my deadline is next week. I think whether we reach it or not, I couldn't tell you because I'm not near the word count, and it's quite difficult working on an existing series, yeah, because the main core are not my characters. So when I'm writing it, I'm like, is this how this person would be? Or should and sometimes I'm questioning like, are they acting in the way they're meant to be acting? But obviously, now there's quite a lot of my own characters in there, and I threw in my brother in there because he's a massive Manchester United fan, and he's one that said, You have to take this deal. And I threw my nephew in there who got upset he's six because the character of him in the book doesn't look exactly like him. He got upset. Can you imagine? Just say thank you.

Ali 30:01

He'll never be in a book again.

Abiola 30:03

I was just like, oh, is this all we're doing? Okay. They are fun books, but the turnaround is very quick. But I'm trying to persuade Rashford team that he should do a book signing at Piccadilly for book 10, which will be next year, and just have the whole thing, get all the authors that worked on it and have a whole well done, 10 books done. Yeah, that sounds fun. That's what I'm trying to do.

Ali 30:28

To bring him into the book world, to bring him into the book world rather than to go to the football world.

Abiola 30:33

I think he did it for book one, so I'm like, he can do it for book ten, but so I'm just praying he has a really good World Cup. Yeah, yeah, no issues, no drama, he's a success, and then he'll be like Yeah.

Katy 30:46

It would be nice to do one of those events in a bookshop or in a library rather than in a football setting. It just feels that actually what you want to do is to bring those kids who are interested, partly maybe initially from the football point of view, but then to bring them into the book world rather than I agree, for sure. I don't know, anonymous suite in a football stadium.

Abiola 31:10

Yeah, I think it'd be going to be a mini tour.

Katy 31:13

Yeah.

Abiola 31:13

Like you did a week, if you had like a week spent, stuck a mini tour, did like a big Piccadilly event, did like an independent bookshop, did a few libraries, did a school, just sort of cute little thing. I think that'd be really cool. So I'm trying my best to make it happen. I'm being very annoying, but we'll see how. In the meantime, you've got to write book nine. Yeah. Yeah, basically. Yeah.

Katy 31:37

But you'll probably be in a stronger position once you delivered on your deadline for that to persuade them what they should be doing.

Abiola 31:44

I feel like it's not that hard. Everyone should be happy because this is insane. The deadlines in particular are actually very quick. This one is is just is very quick.

Katy 31:54

So it's because it's a national year reading, isn't it? They want to get another one out.

Abiola 31:58

Yeah, oh yeah, I didn't think about that being the reason, actually. And that that is that kind of makes it this year. It's yeah, so wish me luck, please, ladies.

Katy 32:07

And along and alongside that, it says it mentioned on your website you're working your first, we just not adult book, new adult. New adult. Which is like a made-up one, yeah.

Abiola 32:18

The made up one. I wrote an adult book last year, actually. It's about publishing. I thought it was hilarious. Maybe my age book was hilarious. Um, and it got sent out, and then it got the furthest with McMillan. It went to acquisitions, but I think they couldn't get sales behind it because they said that they don't think publishing books do great, and they thought like yellow face like a unicorn. And I was like, I don't, this isn't my area, I don't know. So what happened though with that was McMillan then turned around and was like, let's park that for a second, because we still think could work, could be a timing issue. Let's talk about something else. So we end up talking about many things, and then that's all they had an idea which they wanted as an adult book, and I tried to make it work, and I was like, I don't think this works as adult, I think this works more as YA. They're like, oh, okay, fair. What about making this new adult? And I was like, what's that we know? It's not quite adult. I was like, okay, so yeah, so that's out next September, which I have started, but I haven't worked on it for a minute because I've got to work on Rashford, but that's due in September. So I need to work on that.

Katy 33:19

You're gonna have a busy summer.

Abiola 33:21

I know, and August is my birthday month, and I tend to not do anything, so an interesting summer. But yeah, but because it's all with McMillan, Rashford, and the new adult, and the McMillan team are very chill. They just let us know if you need more time. They're very relaxed and lovely. Yeah, I don't think I'll get in like major trouble, but I also don't want to take advantage and make sure I do my best to get the deadline and stuff. I haven't missed a deadline yet, so I don't want to. Okay, yeah. So I don't know.

Katy 33:46

And on top of all of this, so all of the various different books you've been doing and all the rest of it, you are involved in lots of other things. So we said at the beginning you co-founded Hashtag Press, which was one of the first diverse publishers. You've also co-founded the diverse book awards and the Inc prize. When you started out, and I think you said when you started writing the Emily Knight books, you wanted to do that because you wanted to read about a strong black female protagonist because you couldn't find one. And obviously, a lot of your other initiatives is about diversifying the publishing space for children's books. How much do you think the landscape has changed since you started out on that journey? What do you think is going on in that space?

Abiola 34:31

I think it's changed a lot, if I'm honest. I can now very easily find books of black people in the cover, whether that be kids' books or YA. It's definitely changed a lot. I think the main issue is just momentum. I think if you keep thinking of diversity as a trend or a tick box, then you're gonna lose momentum at some point. And I think why a lot of authors are getting quite frustrated, even though I think from the outside it can look like they're in a bit more of a privileged position because they have an agent, they're published, and blah, blah, blah. But I think we all feel a bit sometimes like you're still having to prove yourself a lot, which is incredibly frustrating. Or when things happen, like your series is paused, even though it's popular. Things that happen, we just think, what is going on here? And it's incredibly frustrating. So I don't feel there's as many new voices that I'm seeing coming out from a diverse space as much as there was before. Yeah. Again, I think the momentum has slowed down, which is not cool. And I think that's why something like hashtag is good because you don't have to have an agent to talk to us and we're just basing it just on your book and whether we think it's a good book or not. And I think only like one of our authors has an agent, to be fair, out of the 20. Yeah, and that's why indies are so important because they give people that opportunity that they wouldn't get otherwise. Because you need to get a big five deal, you need to have a really good agent to get that. To get a really good agent, it's really difficult to get a good agent. Do you know what I mean? Because they're so in demand. So it's this vicious cycle. So if you're then diverse, you're a debut, it's so many things that seem to work against you, which is really unfair. And also, I think if you are an established author in a space, you don't want to also become someone's tick box. You know what I mean? Oh, we're a black author. Let's call that Viola. You don't want to be that person for anyone. You want to be that person they ask because they like your writing, they like you, all for the right reasons. So I think that's the problem, is it's gone very static. And I just sometimes with publishing, they just always think they've done enough and they've never done enough. And I think that's the problem. They're very quick to be like, oh, well done, guys. And it's like, guys, you did the bare minimum. Let's try and advance it, not either keep the same energy or go down. There's just not enough diverse people in publishing houses in-house, and that's that's that's the biggest problem, isn't it? I know from my end, my editor left to go to Penguin. My ever editor got made redundant. You know, it's just the spaces aren't great. I did find out that my original editor for Rashford is now moving to S and she's fantastic. So I'm hoping that they'll allow her to get some really amazing books because she's a really good editor and really lovely. But yeah, if you have people know spaces, then it's not helping to find the voices, isn't it? And it's a vicious cycle, and then it's so boring, I think, at some point.

Ali 37:07

And you shouldn't, it shouldn't be about that, should it? It should be about the story and the book that you want to write.

Abiola 37:12

And you can feel when you're someone's tick box. And also, and this is the main thing I think authors who are already out get annoyed about is the marketing publicity. It's just nothing. They don't do anything with your book. So then you think, well, what's the point? We talk about this type of book, and then they don't do anything, and then you see what they do for others, and you just think, why is it not an even playing field here? No, I don't have the answers for that one. I'm quite good at just going to a different publishing house. I'm quite good at just moving along. But I have a really good agent, so you know that helps. I think if you don't have a good agent or one that will back you and fight with you, it must be very difficult.

Ali 37:46

Yeah.

Abiola 37:46

Very difficult.

Katy 37:47

So hashtag is celebrating 10 years this year. Do you want to say a bit about that?

Abiola 37:53

Yeah, so we are 10 years old, which is crazy. I can't believe that it almost seems fake. So 10 years old, and we've got kids' books and middle grade and YA and a small nonfiction list. And we're all about diversity and debuts and inclusivity. And yeah, it's been a fun ride. It's been a hard ride, but it's been fun and just giving those opportunities to these authors who I don't think would have gotten those opportunities because of the way publishing is structured. And it's been really cool. And I really love when we find a new voice and we're able to publish them and debut them, it's so cool. But yeah, hashtag's definitely one of the hardest things I've ever done in my life. And yeah, now we're in a crowdfunding stage, which wasn't a light decision. I think me and Helen are both very private people. We just put our head down and crack on, and we don't like to ask for help. And I think it got to a point where we had done a lot for hashtag, and we're like, we I think maybe we need some help. And actually, telling people we needed help has helped us more. A lot of companies have reached out to be like, oh, we'll help you with this, help you with that. And then financially, we did need help. When you survive COVID as a small press, it's amazing. At some point, that kind of catches up with you a little bit, I think. I think we're at that stage where it's caught up, and we've seen lots of small presses close around the 10-year mark, which is very scary. And we're hoping that won't be us. So, God willing, we'll have a great crowdfunder. We won't be doing another one. This is one and done. And we will hopefully be celebrating the next 20 years, God willing. Exciting.

Ali 39:24

And we'll put all the links to how people can get involved with that. Thank you.

Katy 39:29

It is the national year of reading. You've obviously done those in terms of trying to change the world of publishing for children. What do you really hope for in terms of what comes out of the national year of reading? What are your hopes for it?

Abiola 39:44

What I would hope with the national year of reading is that we keep up the momentum. Again, let's not be a tick-box exercise and be like, okay, just this year we'll put in all this effort. This needs to continue. Because as much as they keep saying kids aren't reading and I go to loads of school visits. Kids are reading. Boys are reading. Boys have said the reason why they like comic books is because they like to look at pictures. And as books get older, there's no pictures and they don't like it. They've very much said it. I don't know who's going to change that, but they have said that. So kids are reading and are very involved and interested and stuff. So I don't really believe that is necessarily the problem. I think the problem I'm seeing is a lot of kids aren't seeing a lot of themselves reflected. And that's the biggest issue. A lot of these libraries in schools are so diverse, like their shelves are brilliant. The librarians are really doing the work, they are fantastic. I think they need way more support, like consistent support to keep growing. Publishers need to keep giving them more books, sending more authors to their schools because they are doing the work and the kids are fantastic. So I don't think that's the problem. I honestly think it's just a consistency issue. It's the people that they want to push to be the face or something. And I feel like diversity is important because this one face can't represent everyone. You need to have different people for different walks of life, different ages, different races, different backgrounds, because someone's going to relate to them in some way. But you can't keep throwing the same blonde in front of everyone and thinking everyone's going to relate. You can't keep doing that. And I don't know how many times publishing needs to be told that, like at some point. So I think they just need to keep the momentum going and all these great opportunities and incentives they've been doing, they need to keep up. That should be a regular thing. It shouldn't be just for this year. I know there's been lots of people complaining about the rollout, the national year of reading, not being super clear of what they're doing. I definitely know they didn't send stuff to small presses. There's like these, they sent lots of visuals and PDFs and stuff at the beginning of the year. I wish I got sent because of SNS, but I know as hashtag, we didn't get sent it. So it's who are you involving in this campaign? You can't involve a select few and ignore everyone if it's a national year of reading. So again, I think it's always just getting the right people in the right spaces in the right rooms. And I think with publishing, it's just not that unfortunately. I'm sure there should be someone in the room to say, should we not send this to every single publishing house in the country?

Ali 42:15

Yeah.

Abiola 42:15

Like, how is that not? How is that something we have to think about? So some like this question, like, who is in the room making these decisions? I saw some people who were like the face of like national year of reading. And I was just like, isn't this for kids? Why is this person like it just wasn't making sense some of the people they chose? If it's for children, like why would you not ask Marcus Rashford to do national year of reading? Why wouldn't you ask Robin Stevens? Every school I go into, there is a mad Robin Stevens fan in there, like mental Robin Stevens, every school I've gone to. I was at Robin, I didn't know you were this popular. It's crazy. Why would you not have her? That's crazy to me. So sometimes I just think who's in the room thinking of these names and not understanding kids, or maybe go and ask the kids. Who would you like to just ask the kids what they want? They'll tell you. That's what I just hope. They can really listen to what they did wrong, fix it, but keep the same momentum and energy going for years to come and not just burn out once it gets to December and decide I've done enough.

Ali 43:10

Yeah, I think that's what we think. It's like the start of something, not the thing.

Abiola 43:14

But the authors on the ground, librarians, they're just getting done with it.

Katy 43:18

But they do it year in, year out. I'm gonna say thank you very much. It's been great to listen to you, and we look forward to the Marcus Reshre. And the new adult book. The new adult book. New adult, me too. You've hit hitting all of those deadlines, and we look forward to those. So thank you very much.